A Conversation with a Christian
[Some useful perspectives on overcoming the human condition (or not) - personal info redacted . "Christian" seems holds a reasonably popular and liberal view of Christianity - she's not a fundamentalist, but thinks the Bible somehow has all the answers. She is certainly not familiar with the Bible, but thinks she is -- a common situation of "believers". As many believers do, she demands that opponents "read the Bible" to learn what it "really" says. This attitude generally comes from enthusiastic but selective Bible study, not from the in-depth start-to-finish study typical in a University level course in the Book and associated historical context. You just can't know what you don't know ...]
She's also not an American, so is probably unfamiliar with with the litany of crimes that America has committed against humanity in the years since World War II]
[09:13] (You): 2 names -- officially "diary of a christian skeptic"
[09:13] (You): but i have dumped Christianity entirely so changed it to "Road to Reality"
[09:13] (You): "Road to Reality" is a title of the best applied math book ever -- Roger Penrose i think
[09:14] Christian: is your wife a christian?
[09:14] (You): no
[09:14] Christian: you were?
[09:14] (You): her world is immediate and practical
[09:14] (You): yes - a lay minister even
[09:14] (You): candidate for the ministry [1 year in Master of Divinity program at Queen's University, Kingston, Canada]
[09:14] Christian: oh really
[09:15] (You): it took me years to accept Christianity and even more years to reject it
[09:15] (You): not just a knee jerk rejection of "religion" in general
[09:16] Christian: in the end what was it that tipped you over the edge?
[09:16] (You): i think the religions of the book - Islam, Christianity, Judaism all have a toxic basis
[09:16] (You): which is the idea that believers are special -- beloved of God
[09:17] (You): of course God is a fiction
[09:17] (You): but the idea of being special remains
[09:17] (You): also the core of American exceptionalism - the idea that the rules don't apply to America [This idea is, of course, very controversial, mainly because many people don't think that America is exceptional and free of the rules that apply to other nations. The fact is that America behaves as if it's free of the rules. The issue here is the history and roots of that attitude, which, in my opinion, go straight back to Biblical theology]
[09:17] (You): behind genocide of North American aboriginals
[09:18] (You): and the current crisis in world affairs [For example, Jewish exceptionalism - the idea that the Jews are a chosen people and are entitled to carve out a nation in Palestine. This has lead to several bloody wars, including the current "War on Terrorism"]
[09:18] (You): fundamentalism of all sorts - with the core idea that "we" are special and "you" need to die if u don't accept that
[09:18] (You): that's what i mean by toxic
[09:19] (You): of course the doctrine is false but all doctrine is false in the long run
[09:19] (You): it's the effect that turns my stomach
[09:19] Christian: but it's natural
[09:19] Christian: we all see our family as special
[09:19] (You): i follow zen now
[09:19] (You): and in zen "natural" is not good
[09:19] (You): we fight "natural"
[09:20] Christian: for what purpose?
[09:20] (You): we try to see the world as it is
[09:20] Christian: sorry i don't know about zen [Ordinary "Christians" tend to know nothing about other Christian denominations, let alone other religions, let alone alternatives to religion per se. They are almost always ignorant of the strong family resemblance between Christianity, Judaism and Islam, nor are they aware that other "religions" are fundamentally different from their own]
[09:20] (You): humans are not wired to see the world as it is
[09:20] (You): that blog may give u a taste
[09:20] (You): zen is not for everyone
[09:21] (You): for most folks it's hard to see how much of what they believe has been force fed them all their lives
[09:21] (You): zen is not about "belief"
[09:21] (You): it's about letting go of belief
[09:21] (You): just experiencing the world as it is
[09:21] (You): that's almost impossible for 90% of human beings
[09:21] (You): so it's not a popular path
[09:22] Christian: so...
[09:22] (You): we try to turn misery into ordinary unhappiness ...
[09:22] Christian: you want to fight to shake off what comes naturally to people?
[09:22] (You): the "payoff" is also very hard to understand
[09:22] (You): first to understand what it is to be human .. then to move past it
[09:23] (You): it's not an arrogant point of view
[09:23] (You): compassion is at the heart of zen
[09:24] (You): Buddhism is a true religion but can be seen as a philosophy
[09:24] (You): Buddhism is a parent of zen the way that Christianity is supposedly based on the Old Testament
[09:24] (You): both links are pretty flimsy
[09:25] (You): but the Dalai Lama is deeply respected by followers of zen
[09:25] (You): not the way the Pope is seen by Catholics
[09:25] (You): the Dalai Lama makes no rules, has no authority aside from his wisdom
[09:26] Christian: so what is it to be human?
[09:26] (You): that is a huge question
[09:26] (You): of course u need to understand that before u can *be* human let alone overcome the limitations
[09:26] (You): most people have no idea
[09:27] (You): my favorite example is the little old lady who is absolutely sure that God made the universe but could not point to her own liver
[09:27] (You): most people know nothing at all about their bodies, their brains, human history ...
[09:27] Christian: so
[09:28] Christian: that would be contrary to what you just said though
[09:28] (You): there is a very good book : "Zen and the Brain"
[09:28] Christian: and i thought that as you said it
[09:28] Christian: you don't need to know what it is to be human to actually be human
[09:28] (You): it's about the experience of Zen but also about neuroscience -- written by an expert in both
[09:29] (You): well actually it would help !!
[09:29] (You): for example ...
[09:29] (You): most people are caught up in regrets, fears, fantasies and ignore the real world 99% of the time
[09:29] Christian: it may enrich your experience, but it doesn't make you more or less human by not knowing
[09:29] (You): that's human
[09:30] (You): *understanding* that fact can be a huge help
[09:30] (You): that's the basis of modern psychotherapy -- "Mindfulness" which is basically zen
[09:30] (You): if u want to overcome pain it helps to know what pain is
[09:31] (You): obviously
[09:32] Christian: so, you want to overcome your humanity
[09:32] (You): another example
[09:32] (You): i'm a pilot -- flying is not natural to human beings
[09:33] (You): to fly u need to know and understand the feeling of panic when u look down or when gravity starts to play tricks
[09:33] (You): u need to overcome not just panic but the source of panic
[09:33] (You): same with SCUBA - also totally unnatural
[09:34] (You): those are examples of stepping past natural humanity into a real world that u could not reach otherwise
[09:34] Christian: Christianity teaches the same
[09:35] Christian: about overcoming
[09:35] (You): true
[09:35] (You): spirituality is all about going beyond being human
[09:36] (You): and of course the core doctrine is that God "gets" it because he became human ..
[09:36] (You): a cute idea
[09:36] (You): Christianity works best when set to music -- i wrote quite a few songs when i was a Christian
[09:36] Christian: i don't think that's what it says
[09:36] (You): well as a Christian u r free to say whatever u like about what it means ...
[Personal info ommitted]
[09:45] (You): we are hugely different
[09:46] (You): it's hard to *accept* those differences and work around them
[09:46] (You): for both of us
[09:46] (You): also i'm hugely different from almost everyone
[09:46] Christian: lol
[09:46] (You): i have an iq higher than 99.9% of the population
[09:46] (You): i live in a different world
[09:46] Christian: oh really
[09:47] (You): u need to understand that there are millions of us ... it's not a small group
[09:47] (You): almost all medical doctors for example
[09:47] Christian: do you belong to Mensa?
[09:47] (You): yes
[09:48] (You): that's nice but they cheat
[09:48] (You): they claim to be in top 3% but that's not the way they test it
[09:48] (You): and top 3 is not the top 0.1
[09:49] (You): still, it's nice to hang out with them -- u don't get accused of showing off by knowing so much stuff
[09:49] (You): or [my] vocabulary
[09:49] (You): and u can talk frankly about what it is to have that gift
[09:49] (You): most people consider it rude
[09:49] Christian: lol
[09:49] (You): [x] is a school principal
[09:50] (You): once i mentioned (as a joke) that 50% of the Canadian population has a below average IQ
[09:50] (You): X was shocked
[09:50] (You): hahaha
[09:50] Christian: lol
[09:50] (You): not familiar with statistics *or* IQ
[09:50] (You): but X is an educational leader - a local authority
...
[09:53] Christian: where did you do your iq test?
[09:53] (You): several
[09:53] (You): when i applied for the ministry
[09:53] (You): in the military
[09:53] (You): and Mensa
...
[09:53] (You): the number is pretty fuzzy at both ends of the tail
[09:54] (You): low iq means a lot of different things
[09:54] (You): and above 140 people are very different from each other
[09:54] (You): these days IQ is being replace by neurology
[09:54] (You): u can actually watch what's happening in the brain
[09:54] (You): u can *see* what it means to be intelligent
[09:55] (You): but the old IQ score becomes moot
[09:55] (You): for example the old discussion about whether IQ tests are fair is irrelevant
[09:55] (You): u can test intelligence in a machine like an eye test
[09:56] (You): also creativity by the way -- not strictly linked to intelligence
[09:56] Christian: oh for sure
[09:56] (You): but with respect to the original topic
[09:57] (You): it's important to understand everything about yourself
[09:57] (You): IQ is just one thing
[09:57] (You): being 68 is another
[09:57] (You): being Canadian, English speaking, professional ...
[09:57] (You): long IT career -- teaches a lot about human error ...
[09:58] Christian: lol im sure
[09:58] Christian: so the big question is
[09:58] (You): it's good to understand why i'm so lonely most of the time ...
[09:58] Christian: with all those brains
...
[09:59] Christian: you're not intelligent enough to bridge the gap?
[09:59] (You): takes two to bridge that gap
[09:59] (You): most people can't understand the directions for their microwave oven
[09:59] Christian: maybe to keep it bridged, but people many people are open
[09:59] (You): not their fault
[09:59] Christian: yes
[10:00] Christian: well
[10:00] (You): that's like wanting to fly
[10:00] Christian: that would be me
[10:00] Christian: its probably not that they can't understand
...
[10:00] (You): no it *is* that they can't ["Christian" is presenting the democratic myth that anybody can do or be or understand anything with enough hard work. To believe such nonsense, it's helpful to practice believing Christian dogma ..."]
[10:00] (You): there are some things I can't understand
[10:00] (You): like that book "Road to Reality"
[10:01] (You): gets harder and harder as u read through it
[10:01] (You): but it's all at University Math level
[10:01] (You): I have an M, Sc. math [U of Calgary, 1969]
[10:01] (You): but there are people way smarter than me
[10:01] (You): my intelligence is mainly visual
[10:01] (You): if i can't picture it i find it hard to grasp
[10:02] (You): Einstein had the same kind of thing
[10:02] Christian: you can math equation all you like, but it doesn't mean you get the right answer
[10:02] (You): he considered himself to be very bad at math and he made a lot of mistakes
[10:02] Christian: there ya go
[10:02] (You): zen takes u in 180 degrees different direction
[10:03] Christian: even if the equation is correct it doesn't mean it fits
[10:03] (You): to experience raw existence
[10:03] (You): but paradoxically that makes no sense if u don't have a truly open, creative mind
[10:03] (You): for most zen practitioners it's about sitting in a special way for hours every day
[10:04] (You): that totally misses the point [Well, the point according to me :)) - I'm a total Zen newbie actually but a quick study ...]
[10:05] (You): zen is not about theories, does not require anything like theology or philosophy
[10:05] (You): it's like yoga for the mind
[10:05] (You): just *do* it
[10:05] (You): the practice leads to a clear mind and opens the door to seeing much more of what it happening around u
[10:06] (You): [most people ..]
[10:06] (You): ...always lost in worries, fears, regrets ...
[10:06] (You): hardly ever come up for air
[10:06] (You): but ...defenses are strong and high
[10:07] (You): impossible to convince ...to spend 30 minutes just connecting to the moment
[10:07] (You): this could kill ...- -high blood pressure, extreme stress
[10:08] (You): i see that in most of the people around me
[10:08] Christian: but that is [for them] "here and now"
[10:08] (You): well yes
[10:08] (You): but that's a choice
[10:08] (You): live in your [fantasy world] or in the real world
[10:08] (You): it's *not* the same thing
[10:08] (You): the choice is real and fundamentally important
[10:09] Christian: to who? [A trace of popular relativism here -- anybody is entitled believe whatever they want and reality is just a matter of personal opinion]
[10:09] (You): if u read back to my reasons for abandoning Christianity, you will see how important it can be
[10:10] (You): Christianity is in the heads of the believers
[10:10] (You): but it is objectively false
[10:10] (You): the suffering it causes is real
[10:10] (You): millions die every year, killed because they don't matter to the "chosen ones"
[10:10] (You): they are really dead
[10:10] (You): not just in the heads of believers
[10:10] Christian: i don't know what you're talking about
[10:11] (You): example ...
[10:11] Christian: that doesn't sound like the Christianity i know
[10:11] (You): over 100,000 innocent Iraqis died in George Bush's war of civilization
[10:11] (You): war against America and the unbelievers
[10:11] Christian: that's not religious
[10:11] Christian: its over oil
[10:12] (You): it was explicitly and openly religious
[10:12] (You): no
[10:12] (You): he could buy all the oil he needed
[10:12] Christian: dude, do you seriously think they'd care if there was no oil there?
[10:12] (You): he saw it as a Crusade and said so
[10:12] Christian: there are many African countries with Muslims
[10:12] Christian: no one cares
[10:12] Christian: its oil
[10:12] (You): I was in that part of the world when Saddam was a dear friend of the US
[10:13] (You): his mistake was to challenge American superiority
[10:13] (You): which Americans take for granted is from God
[10:13] (You): that gave them the right to kill everyone in Iraq
[10:13] (You): also Viet Nam [More than 3 million people were killed in the Viet Nam war - Americans usually just count their own soldiers - 58,000. The war began when the US refused to accept the UN-mandated free elections in Viet Nam after the departure of the French. UN rules did not apply to America]
[10:13] (You): Nicaragua [US Intervention there was ruled by the International Court of Justice to be illegal - but of course the American President knew better ... Some estimates place the number of innocent civilians murdered by the US-backed contras as 70,000]
[10:13] (You): Japan
[10:14] (You): even Canada in 1812 !!
[10:14] Christian: listen
[10:14] (You): millions of aboriginals in the 19th century [Denial of this particular genocide closely parallels Holocaust denial and a vigorous re-writing of history. Whatever you may call it, at least in Canada, it was conducted with the active participation of Christian missionaries]
[10:14] Christian: people will use whatever tool they can to get what they want
[10:16] Christian: Jesus never told to go out an conquer the world [actually he did ... see Acts]
[10:16] Christian: he said serve
[10:16] (You): yes
[10:17] (You): it's true people will use what they can
[10:17] (You): the point is that they use Christian dogma to do it
[10:17] (You): It's ordinary human lust for power dressed up as deep philosophy
[10:17] (You): the dogma is *false*
[10:18] (You): that's the problem
[10:18] Christian: well that's not Christianity's fault
[10:18] (You): there is no God and hence "he" has no favorites
[10:18] (You): it is precisely Christianity's fault
[10:18] (You): Christianity is the work of humans
[10:18] Christian: im pretty sure that Christ said "consider others better than yourself" [would need a ref for that ... actually the idea is to love thy neighbor as thyself]
[10:18] (You): the result of their ideas is their fault
[10:19] Christian: so i don't know what you mean by 'favorites'
[10:19] (You): call it karma
[10:19] (You): do u believe that Christians go to heaven?
[10:19] (You): that their ticket is solely their belief in Jesus?
[10:19] Christian: come on
[10:19] (You): all their sins can be forgiven?
[10:20] Christian: you were a lay preacher
[10:20] (You): hey that's basic -- it's in the catechism
[for the record this is what Christians are supposed to believe Nicine creed AD 325 - at this point, disagreeing with any part of the creed became a capital offence in the Roman Empire. The creed can be read as a list of things that lots of people believed but were now forbidden on pain of death]
[10:20] Christian: it sounds like you've been watching too many YouTube videos
[10:20] (You): Jesus died for our sins ... no need for us to face the real consequences
[10:20] Christian: pick up a bible and read it, you must have forgotten some things
[10:21] (You): actually i know the Bible very well -- studied it at University level, much of it in the original language
[10:21] (You): problem is most people don't read it
[10:21] (You): in fact the people who tell me to read it haven't read it themselves
[10:21] (You): they are cherry pickers
[10:21] (You): example
[10:21] (You): in the same passage as the 10 commandments
[10:22] (You): God says a woman who cannot *prove* her virginity on wedding night should be taken to her father's house and stoned to death
[Deut 2:22 ..]
If, however, the charge is true and no proof of the young woman’s virginity can be found, 21she shall be brought to the door of her father’s house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death. She has done an outrageous thing in Israel by being promiscuous while still in her father’s house. You must purge the evil from among you.
[10:22] (You): by order of God himself
[10:22] (You): that's the law
[10:23] Christian: yes but you can't pull one law out of the context of the book
[10:23] (You): haha
[10:23] (You): so who tells you what the right context is?
[10:23] (You): it boils down to human authority
[10:23] (You): like George Bush and Texas fundamentalists
[10:23] Christian: the whole book is the context
[10:24] (You): or the Pope who was happy to go along with Nazi extermination of the Jews in WW II
[10:24] Christian: you need to understand the bigger picture
[10:24] (You): we have different "bigger pictures"
[10:25] (You): there are hundreds of religions in India
[10:25] (You): give me an example of one that believes killing belivers of the other is right?
[10:25] (You): the exceptions are: Islam and Christianity
[10:25] (You): that's a pretty big picture
[10:26] (You): Christians started killing off each other as soon as Rome adopted Christianity
[10:26] Christian: where does Christianity say to do that?
[10:26] (You): people were killed for rejecting the doctrine of the Trinity [example, Nicene Creed above]
[10:27] Christian: but that is not what the Bible says to do
[10:27] (You): *your* Christianity is an interpretation
[10:27] (You): and you rule out stoning virgins even though it's in the Bible
[10:27] (You): i *know* the Bible ...
[10:27] (You): deeply
[10:27] (You): it's not a rule book
[10:27] (You): it's historical fiction
[10:27] (You): almost no philosophy
[10:28] Christian: then you'd know that those rules don't apply to gentiles
[10:28] (You): rules are basically ancient sacrificial laws like any u find in primitive cultures
[10:28] (You): so u say ...
[10:28] (You): others differ
[10:28] (You): Christians get to self-identify and define Christianity any way they like
[10:29] Christian: so the bible says
[10:29] (You): so the only meaningful way to see it is in terms of the way Christians *act* in history
[10:29] Christian: Jesus was very clear about serving
[10:29] Christian: about loving
[10:29] (You): actually no
[10:29] Christian: about turning the other cheek
[10:29] (You): in fact there is not much in the Bible that can be confidently traced to Jesus
[10:30] (You): "Christianity" is not a creation of Jesus
[10:30] Christian: im sorry but if you take the bible at face value
[10:30] Christian: then what he said is very clear
[10:30] Christian: hey
[10:30] (You): Church history was one of the subjects in the Seminary
[10:30] (You): Christianity begins 100 yrs after the death of Christ
...
[10:31] (You): i *do* know a lot of great christians
[10:31] Christian: would love to do this again some time
[10:31] (You): good in spite of the burden
[10:31] Christian: its not like that
[10:32] Christian: you know better than others
[10:32] (You): not for you perhaps ...
[10:32] (You): lets talk later
[10:32] Christian: i don't' know where you've been getting all this other stuff
...
[10:32] (You): 68 years
[10:32] (You): professional education as a Minister
[10:32] (You): decades of study
[10:32] (You): history, psychology, other religions
[10:33] Christian: you need to narrow the field a bit though
[10:33] (You): and that pesky IQ
[10:33] Christian: if you want to talk about Christianity
[10:33] Christian: anyway
[10:33] Christian: or you want to talk about humanity
[10:33] (You): Christianity is just another religion - they are all wrong but some are wronger than others ...
[10:34] (You): Talk about humanity will bring us back to Zen and i love to talk about that
[10:34] Christian: well my life motto is
[10:34] Christian: search for the good in all things
[10:34] (You): not a bad one really
[10:35] (You): mine is "What the fuck is going on?"
[10:35] Christian: lol
[10:35] Christian: we are a cancer
[10:35] Christian: growing on the earth
[10:35] Christian: you know the outcome
[10:35] Christian: :)
[10:35] Christian: enjoy your day
[10:36] Christian: and your breakfast!
[10:36] Christian: must be past lunch now
[10:36] (You): we can talk about *that* if u like .. that's a Christian perspective too -- the joy that the world is ending [Bush himself believed this ...]
[10:36] Christian: and thanks gain
[10:36] Christian: again*
She's also not an American, so is probably unfamiliar with with the litany of crimes that America has committed against humanity in the years since World War II]
[09:13] (You): 2 names -- officially "diary of a christian skeptic"
[09:13] (You): but i have dumped Christianity entirely so changed it to "Road to Reality"
[09:13] (You): "Road to Reality" is a title of the best applied math book ever -- Roger Penrose i think
[09:14] Christian: is your wife a christian?
[09:14] (You): no
[09:14] Christian: you were?
[09:14] (You): her world is immediate and practical
[09:14] (You): yes - a lay minister even
[09:14] (You): candidate for the ministry [1 year in Master of Divinity program at Queen's University, Kingston, Canada]
[09:14] Christian: oh really
[09:15] (You): it took me years to accept Christianity and even more years to reject it
[09:15] (You): not just a knee jerk rejection of "religion" in general
[09:16] Christian: in the end what was it that tipped you over the edge?
[09:16] (You): i think the religions of the book - Islam, Christianity, Judaism all have a toxic basis
[09:16] (You): which is the idea that believers are special -- beloved of God
[09:17] (You): of course God is a fiction
[09:17] (You): but the idea of being special remains
[09:17] (You): also the core of American exceptionalism - the idea that the rules don't apply to America [This idea is, of course, very controversial, mainly because many people don't think that America is exceptional and free of the rules that apply to other nations. The fact is that America behaves as if it's free of the rules. The issue here is the history and roots of that attitude, which, in my opinion, go straight back to Biblical theology]
[09:17] (You): behind genocide of North American aboriginals
[09:18] (You): and the current crisis in world affairs [For example, Jewish exceptionalism - the idea that the Jews are a chosen people and are entitled to carve out a nation in Palestine. This has lead to several bloody wars, including the current "War on Terrorism"]
[09:18] (You): fundamentalism of all sorts - with the core idea that "we" are special and "you" need to die if u don't accept that
[09:18] (You): that's what i mean by toxic
[09:19] (You): of course the doctrine is false but all doctrine is false in the long run
[09:19] (You): it's the effect that turns my stomach
[09:19] Christian: but it's natural
[09:19] Christian: we all see our family as special
[09:19] (You): i follow zen now
[09:19] (You): and in zen "natural" is not good
[09:19] (You): we fight "natural"
[09:20] Christian: for what purpose?
[09:20] (You): we try to see the world as it is
[09:20] Christian: sorry i don't know about zen [Ordinary "Christians" tend to know nothing about other Christian denominations, let alone other religions, let alone alternatives to religion per se. They are almost always ignorant of the strong family resemblance between Christianity, Judaism and Islam, nor are they aware that other "religions" are fundamentally different from their own]
[09:20] (You): humans are not wired to see the world as it is
[09:20] (You): that blog may give u a taste
[09:20] (You): zen is not for everyone
[09:21] (You): for most folks it's hard to see how much of what they believe has been force fed them all their lives
[09:21] (You): zen is not about "belief"
[09:21] (You): it's about letting go of belief
[09:21] (You): just experiencing the world as it is
[09:21] (You): that's almost impossible for 90% of human beings
[09:21] (You): so it's not a popular path
[09:22] Christian: so...
[09:22] (You): we try to turn misery into ordinary unhappiness ...
[09:22] Christian: you want to fight to shake off what comes naturally to people?
[09:22] (You): the "payoff" is also very hard to understand
[09:22] (You): first to understand what it is to be human .. then to move past it
[09:23] (You): it's not an arrogant point of view
[09:23] (You): compassion is at the heart of zen
[09:24] (You): Buddhism is a true religion but can be seen as a philosophy
[09:24] (You): Buddhism is a parent of zen the way that Christianity is supposedly based on the Old Testament
[09:24] (You): both links are pretty flimsy
[09:25] (You): but the Dalai Lama is deeply respected by followers of zen
[09:25] (You): not the way the Pope is seen by Catholics
[09:25] (You): the Dalai Lama makes no rules, has no authority aside from his wisdom
[09:26] Christian: so what is it to be human?
[09:26] (You): that is a huge question
[09:26] (You): of course u need to understand that before u can *be* human let alone overcome the limitations
[09:26] (You): most people have no idea
[09:27] (You): my favorite example is the little old lady who is absolutely sure that God made the universe but could not point to her own liver
[09:27] (You): most people know nothing at all about their bodies, their brains, human history ...
[09:27] Christian: so
[09:28] Christian: that would be contrary to what you just said though
[09:28] (You): there is a very good book : "Zen and the Brain"
[09:28] Christian: and i thought that as you said it
[09:28] Christian: you don't need to know what it is to be human to actually be human
[09:28] (You): it's about the experience of Zen but also about neuroscience -- written by an expert in both
[09:29] (You): well actually it would help !!
[09:29] (You): for example ...
[09:29] (You): most people are caught up in regrets, fears, fantasies and ignore the real world 99% of the time
[09:29] Christian: it may enrich your experience, but it doesn't make you more or less human by not knowing
[09:29] (You): that's human
[09:30] (You): *understanding* that fact can be a huge help
[09:30] (You): that's the basis of modern psychotherapy -- "Mindfulness" which is basically zen
[09:30] (You): if u want to overcome pain it helps to know what pain is
[09:31] (You): obviously
[09:32] Christian: so, you want to overcome your humanity
[09:32] (You): another example
[09:32] (You): i'm a pilot -- flying is not natural to human beings
[09:33] (You): to fly u need to know and understand the feeling of panic when u look down or when gravity starts to play tricks
[09:33] (You): u need to overcome not just panic but the source of panic
[09:33] (You): same with SCUBA - also totally unnatural
[09:34] (You): those are examples of stepping past natural humanity into a real world that u could not reach otherwise
[09:34] Christian: Christianity teaches the same
[09:35] Christian: about overcoming
[09:35] (You): true
[09:35] (You): spirituality is all about going beyond being human
[09:36] (You): and of course the core doctrine is that God "gets" it because he became human ..
[09:36] (You): a cute idea
[09:36] (You): Christianity works best when set to music -- i wrote quite a few songs when i was a Christian
[09:36] Christian: i don't think that's what it says
[09:36] (You): well as a Christian u r free to say whatever u like about what it means ...
[Personal info ommitted]
[09:45] (You): we are hugely different
[09:46] (You): it's hard to *accept* those differences and work around them
[09:46] (You): for both of us
[09:46] (You): also i'm hugely different from almost everyone
[09:46] Christian: lol
[09:46] (You): i have an iq higher than 99.9% of the population
[09:46] (You): i live in a different world
[09:46] Christian: oh really
[09:47] (You): u need to understand that there are millions of us ... it's not a small group
[09:47] (You): almost all medical doctors for example
[09:47] Christian: do you belong to Mensa?
[09:47] (You): yes
[09:48] (You): that's nice but they cheat
[09:48] (You): they claim to be in top 3% but that's not the way they test it
[09:48] (You): and top 3 is not the top 0.1
[09:49] (You): still, it's nice to hang out with them -- u don't get accused of showing off by knowing so much stuff
[09:49] (You): or [my] vocabulary
[09:49] (You): and u can talk frankly about what it is to have that gift
[09:49] (You): most people consider it rude
[09:49] Christian: lol
[09:49] (You): [x] is a school principal
[09:50] (You): once i mentioned (as a joke) that 50% of the Canadian population has a below average IQ
[09:50] (You): X was shocked
[09:50] (You): hahaha
[09:50] Christian: lol
[09:50] (You): not familiar with statistics *or* IQ
[09:50] (You): but X is an educational leader - a local authority
...
[09:53] Christian: where did you do your iq test?
[09:53] (You): several
[09:53] (You): when i applied for the ministry
[09:53] (You): in the military
[09:53] (You): and Mensa
...
[09:53] (You): the number is pretty fuzzy at both ends of the tail
[09:54] (You): low iq means a lot of different things
[09:54] (You): and above 140 people are very different from each other
[09:54] (You): these days IQ is being replace by neurology
[09:54] (You): u can actually watch what's happening in the brain
[09:54] (You): u can *see* what it means to be intelligent
[09:55] (You): but the old IQ score becomes moot
[09:55] (You): for example the old discussion about whether IQ tests are fair is irrelevant
[09:55] (You): u can test intelligence in a machine like an eye test
[09:56] (You): also creativity by the way -- not strictly linked to intelligence
[09:56] Christian: oh for sure
[09:56] (You): but with respect to the original topic
[09:57] (You): it's important to understand everything about yourself
[09:57] (You): IQ is just one thing
[09:57] (You): being 68 is another
[09:57] (You): being Canadian, English speaking, professional ...
[09:57] (You): long IT career -- teaches a lot about human error ...
[09:58] Christian: lol im sure
[09:58] Christian: so the big question is
[09:58] (You): it's good to understand why i'm so lonely most of the time ...
[09:58] Christian: with all those brains
...
[09:59] Christian: you're not intelligent enough to bridge the gap?
[09:59] (You): takes two to bridge that gap
[09:59] (You): most people can't understand the directions for their microwave oven
[09:59] Christian: maybe to keep it bridged, but people many people are open
[09:59] (You): not their fault
[09:59] Christian: yes
[10:00] Christian: well
[10:00] (You): that's like wanting to fly
[10:00] Christian: that would be me
[10:00] Christian: its probably not that they can't understand
...
[10:00] (You): no it *is* that they can't ["Christian" is presenting the democratic myth that anybody can do or be or understand anything with enough hard work. To believe such nonsense, it's helpful to practice believing Christian dogma ..."]
[10:00] (You): there are some things I can't understand
[10:00] (You): like that book "Road to Reality"
[10:01] (You): gets harder and harder as u read through it
[10:01] (You): but it's all at University Math level
[10:01] (You): I have an M, Sc. math [U of Calgary, 1969]
[10:01] (You): but there are people way smarter than me
[10:01] (You): my intelligence is mainly visual
[10:01] (You): if i can't picture it i find it hard to grasp
[10:02] (You): Einstein had the same kind of thing
[10:02] Christian: you can math equation all you like, but it doesn't mean you get the right answer
[10:02] (You): he considered himself to be very bad at math and he made a lot of mistakes
[10:02] Christian: there ya go
[10:02] (You): zen takes u in 180 degrees different direction
[10:03] Christian: even if the equation is correct it doesn't mean it fits
[10:03] (You): to experience raw existence
[10:03] (You): but paradoxically that makes no sense if u don't have a truly open, creative mind
[10:03] (You): for most zen practitioners it's about sitting in a special way for hours every day
[10:04] (You): that totally misses the point [Well, the point according to me :)) - I'm a total Zen newbie actually but a quick study ...]
[10:05] (You): zen is not about theories, does not require anything like theology or philosophy
[10:05] (You): it's like yoga for the mind
[10:05] (You): just *do* it
[10:05] (You): the practice leads to a clear mind and opens the door to seeing much more of what it happening around u
[10:06] (You): [most people ..]
[10:06] (You): ...always lost in worries, fears, regrets ...
[10:06] (You): hardly ever come up for air
[10:06] (You): but ...defenses are strong and high
[10:07] (You): impossible to convince ...to spend 30 minutes just connecting to the moment
[10:07] (You): this could kill ...- -high blood pressure, extreme stress
[10:08] (You): i see that in most of the people around me
[10:08] Christian: but that is [for them] "here and now"
[10:08] (You): well yes
[10:08] (You): but that's a choice
[10:08] (You): live in your [fantasy world] or in the real world
[10:08] (You): it's *not* the same thing
[10:08] (You): the choice is real and fundamentally important
[10:09] Christian: to who? [A trace of popular relativism here -- anybody is entitled believe whatever they want and reality is just a matter of personal opinion]
[10:09] (You): if u read back to my reasons for abandoning Christianity, you will see how important it can be
[10:10] (You): Christianity is in the heads of the believers
[10:10] (You): but it is objectively false
[10:10] (You): the suffering it causes is real
[10:10] (You): millions die every year, killed because they don't matter to the "chosen ones"
[10:10] (You): they are really dead
[10:10] (You): not just in the heads of believers
[10:10] Christian: i don't know what you're talking about
[10:11] (You): example ...
[10:11] Christian: that doesn't sound like the Christianity i know
[10:11] (You): over 100,000 innocent Iraqis died in George Bush's war of civilization
[10:11] (You): war against America and the unbelievers
[10:11] Christian: that's not religious
[10:11] Christian: its over oil
[10:12] (You): it was explicitly and openly religious
[10:12] (You): no
[10:12] (You): he could buy all the oil he needed
[10:12] Christian: dude, do you seriously think they'd care if there was no oil there?
[10:12] (You): he saw it as a Crusade and said so
[10:12] Christian: there are many African countries with Muslims
[10:12] Christian: no one cares
[10:12] Christian: its oil
[10:12] (You): I was in that part of the world when Saddam was a dear friend of the US
[10:13] (You): his mistake was to challenge American superiority
[10:13] (You): which Americans take for granted is from God
[10:13] (You): that gave them the right to kill everyone in Iraq
[10:13] (You): also Viet Nam [More than 3 million people were killed in the Viet Nam war - Americans usually just count their own soldiers - 58,000. The war began when the US refused to accept the UN-mandated free elections in Viet Nam after the departure of the French. UN rules did not apply to America]
[10:13] (You): Nicaragua [US Intervention there was ruled by the International Court of Justice to be illegal - but of course the American President knew better ... Some estimates place the number of innocent civilians murdered by the US-backed contras as 70,000]
[10:13] (You): Japan
[10:14] (You): even Canada in 1812 !!
[10:14] Christian: listen
[10:14] (You): millions of aboriginals in the 19th century [Denial of this particular genocide closely parallels Holocaust denial and a vigorous re-writing of history. Whatever you may call it, at least in Canada, it was conducted with the active participation of Christian missionaries]
[10:14] Christian: people will use whatever tool they can to get what they want
[10:16] Christian: Jesus never told to go out an conquer the world [actually he did ... see Acts]
[10:16] Christian: he said serve
[10:16] (You): yes
[10:17] (You): it's true people will use what they can
[10:17] (You): the point is that they use Christian dogma to do it
[10:17] (You): It's ordinary human lust for power dressed up as deep philosophy
[10:17] (You): the dogma is *false*
[10:18] (You): that's the problem
[10:18] Christian: well that's not Christianity's fault
[10:18] (You): there is no God and hence "he" has no favorites
[10:18] (You): it is precisely Christianity's fault
[10:18] (You): Christianity is the work of humans
[10:18] Christian: im pretty sure that Christ said "consider others better than yourself" [would need a ref for that ... actually the idea is to love thy neighbor as thyself]
[10:18] (You): the result of their ideas is their fault
[10:19] Christian: so i don't know what you mean by 'favorites'
[10:19] (You): call it karma
[10:19] (You): do u believe that Christians go to heaven?
[10:19] (You): that their ticket is solely their belief in Jesus?
[10:19] Christian: come on
[10:19] (You): all their sins can be forgiven?
[10:20] Christian: you were a lay preacher
[10:20] (You): hey that's basic -- it's in the catechism
[for the record this is what Christians are supposed to believe Nicine creed AD 325 - at this point, disagreeing with any part of the creed became a capital offence in the Roman Empire. The creed can be read as a list of things that lots of people believed but were now forbidden on pain of death]
We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
and was made man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
and was made man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.
We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen.
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen.
[10:20] Christian: it sounds like you've been watching too many YouTube videos
[10:20] (You): Jesus died for our sins ... no need for us to face the real consequences
[10:20] Christian: pick up a bible and read it, you must have forgotten some things
[10:21] (You): actually i know the Bible very well -- studied it at University level, much of it in the original language
[10:21] (You): problem is most people don't read it
[10:21] (You): in fact the people who tell me to read it haven't read it themselves
[10:21] (You): they are cherry pickers
[10:21] (You): example
[10:21] (You): in the same passage as the 10 commandments
[10:22] (You): God says a woman who cannot *prove* her virginity on wedding night should be taken to her father's house and stoned to death
[Deut 2:22 ..]
If, however, the charge is true and no proof of the young woman’s virginity can be found, 21she shall be brought to the door of her father’s house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death. She has done an outrageous thing in Israel by being promiscuous while still in her father’s house. You must purge the evil from among you.
[10:22] (You): by order of God himself
[10:22] (You): that's the law
[10:23] Christian: yes but you can't pull one law out of the context of the book
[10:23] (You): haha
[10:23] (You): so who tells you what the right context is?
[10:23] (You): it boils down to human authority
[10:23] (You): like George Bush and Texas fundamentalists
[10:23] Christian: the whole book is the context
[10:24] (You): or the Pope who was happy to go along with Nazi extermination of the Jews in WW II
[10:24] Christian: you need to understand the bigger picture
[10:24] (You): we have different "bigger pictures"
[10:25] (You): there are hundreds of religions in India
[10:25] (You): give me an example of one that believes killing belivers of the other is right?
[10:25] (You): the exceptions are: Islam and Christianity
[10:25] (You): that's a pretty big picture
[10:26] (You): Christians started killing off each other as soon as Rome adopted Christianity
[10:26] Christian: where does Christianity say to do that?
[10:26] (You): people were killed for rejecting the doctrine of the Trinity [example, Nicene Creed above]
[10:27] Christian: but that is not what the Bible says to do
[10:27] (You): *your* Christianity is an interpretation
[10:27] (You): and you rule out stoning virgins even though it's in the Bible
[10:27] (You): i *know* the Bible ...
[10:27] (You): deeply
[10:27] (You): it's not a rule book
[10:27] (You): it's historical fiction
[10:27] (You): almost no philosophy
[10:28] Christian: then you'd know that those rules don't apply to gentiles
[10:28] (You): rules are basically ancient sacrificial laws like any u find in primitive cultures
[10:28] (You): so u say ...
[10:28] (You): others differ
[10:28] (You): Christians get to self-identify and define Christianity any way they like
[10:29] Christian: so the bible says
[10:29] (You): so the only meaningful way to see it is in terms of the way Christians *act* in history
[10:29] Christian: Jesus was very clear about serving
[10:29] Christian: about loving
[10:29] (You): actually no
[10:29] Christian: about turning the other cheek
[10:29] (You): in fact there is not much in the Bible that can be confidently traced to Jesus
[10:30] (You): "Christianity" is not a creation of Jesus
[10:30] Christian: im sorry but if you take the bible at face value
[10:30] Christian: then what he said is very clear
[10:30] Christian: hey
[10:30] (You): Church history was one of the subjects in the Seminary
[10:30] (You): Christianity begins 100 yrs after the death of Christ
...
[10:31] (You): i *do* know a lot of great christians
[10:31] Christian: would love to do this again some time
[10:31] (You): good in spite of the burden
[10:31] Christian: its not like that
[10:32] Christian: you know better than others
[10:32] (You): not for you perhaps ...
[10:32] (You): lets talk later
[10:32] Christian: i don't' know where you've been getting all this other stuff
...
[10:32] (You): 68 years
[10:32] (You): professional education as a Minister
[10:32] (You): decades of study
[10:32] (You): history, psychology, other religions
[10:33] Christian: you need to narrow the field a bit though
[10:33] (You): and that pesky IQ
[10:33] Christian: if you want to talk about Christianity
[10:33] Christian: anyway
[10:33] Christian: or you want to talk about humanity
[10:33] (You): Christianity is just another religion - they are all wrong but some are wronger than others ...
[10:34] (You): Talk about humanity will bring us back to Zen and i love to talk about that
[10:34] Christian: well my life motto is
[10:34] Christian: search for the good in all things
[10:34] (You): not a bad one really
[10:35] (You): mine is "What the fuck is going on?"
[10:35] Christian: lol
[10:35] Christian: we are a cancer
[10:35] Christian: growing on the earth
[10:35] Christian: you know the outcome
[10:35] Christian: :)
[10:35] Christian: enjoy your day
[10:36] Christian: and your breakfast!
[10:36] Christian: must be past lunch now
[10:36] (You): we can talk about *that* if u like .. that's a Christian perspective too -- the joy that the world is ending [Bush himself believed this ...]
[10:36] Christian: and thanks gain
[10:36] Christian: again*
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